Posts by Jonathan Drake

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

So, what, specifically, do you believe about the Bible? That it contains truth? Some truth, all truth? That's it's a collection of interesting stories? What specific truth did Mohammed teach about the Bible? Do you believe Adam literally existed and that angels literally exist and bowed to him?

I believe that dissecting the books and trying to argue they are untrue for any number of reasons both misses the point of the message and is almost always not factual anyway and merely shows a persons misunderstanding of it.

Thus, so far as I am able, I will defend the books by providing the proper context of what happened and any factual information I can. But I will not argue about whether something happened or not so far as our discoveries have no way of showing, because to do so misses the point entirely.

Thus, in answer to your question. I will say I believe Jesus was the messiah, that he willingly took this role, and that he died and was raised to heaven. Because I believe this i strive to live up to his example and direction to love, be tolerant, amd treat people as I wish to be treated whether I agree with their choices or not. I will not judge them or think badly of them, and will seek to make amends whenever I do since it will happen despite my best efforts. all this I will do because I do not miss the point of the message. I also believe that something bad will likely happen to those who have assumed the role of a messenger or Christ, as per Jesus stating it would. And that all religions following a man today are false. In the end, what I believe, is that people like you and I and others here who have renounced our religions because of their clear hypocrisies and lies will be saved, as well as all those who are in the religions honestly trying to find truth, as well as all those whomever else the judge finds is a good and righteous person, regardless of any errors they may have made.

and I believe this because it is, in fact, what the bible says - and, so far, the Quran as well.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

@simon

inspiration is explained as either 1 of 2 things:

1: in the nt, spirit merely assisted the writers to remember things that already happened. No posession.

2. In the OT and in Revelation, Angels appeared telling the writer what to write. No posession.

So I do not understand your idea about posession, I dont know where it comes from but the bible doesn't agree, and nor does the Quran.

i should also clarify that I meant I'm trying to disprove it in my own studies, not here. Here I will defend what I have read of it so far as a can recall it as long as I have not disproved it.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

@ viv

i believe the bible is to be taken as it was written, letting it speak for itself. I also believe to understand its message you have to know the people and culture around its conception. I.e, JWs believe the GB is the faithful steward of Luke 12. This is not so, because the steward or house manager was a cultural reference, one that referred to the servant to whom the master gave the keys of his house. Thus, the steward was Peter (Matt 16:19)

any attempt to take the bible in some other way than just what it says for itself is to interpret, hence twist it, into something it is not at all. amd this is what has been done with the bible for 1000s of years.

as far as the Quran goes, as I've said Ive only read it once so far. But I see no contradictions to the bible, only a great deal of emphasis on the goal of the Quran being not to replace or even give anything new, but to confirm. I've already studied the bible enough to know Jesus is not literally God and the trinity is not true, hence when I read it in the Quran all I see is fulfillment of the Qurans claim. By his time, Christians were teaching the trinity and the bible was shut up by the church and outlawed. Then Muhammed comes along teaching the truth about a book he couldn't even read (even if he had a copy he was illiterate) and correcting the teachings of said book - not replacing them. I find this very impressive, which is why I'm still reading it, trying to find any cotraditions or errors.

the closest I've come so far is a verse that states when God created Adam the Angels bowed down to Adam. I found this strange and actually stopped reading the Quran. However, I later found in other research that the Christians of his day were reading a book that taught the Angels bowed to Adam because of Adam being gods image. So, this was not a contradiction, and really only makes sense. I read the rest of it.

Im actively TRYING to disprove the Quran, but so far I am unable. It teaches everything about the bible I already believe and provided direction for people living at that specific time dealing with specific challenges.

The Book of Mormon however, contradicts the bible many times. Hence I excuse it. It tries to establish its own truth. As the Quran and the bible both say, God does not change, his messages would never contradict each other.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

I have a difficult time taking seriously the opinions and arguments of anyone who believes certain crappy books have been written by a super being possessing someone with a pen.

Also as to this point, remember the bible was written largely after something happened. With few exceptions to some things written as prophecy (whole different discussion I'm sure) it's not a case of God posessing someone. The gospels were all written in the late first century over 30 or even 40 years after Christ died. The only books in the NT written in what comes close to real time are the letters.

This is also true of the Quran. The Quran was taught orally. It was not written down until, likely, about 30 years after Muhammed died.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

The Quran adds nothing to the teaching of the bible.

It states that the bibles messages came through gods messengers before Muhammed and that they are valid messages from God. It does not contradict them. Rather, it condemns the teachings created from the bible that are not scriptural. Like Christ being God, or the trinity - these are not supported by the bible. So when a Christian reads the Quran and sees their Religion contradicted they say it's contradicting the bible. But as my posts have clearly shown with regard to Muslims and the Quran, just because a religion claims a book as its own doesn't mean they follow what it says. This is true of Muslims, clearly, and also of Christians.

The quran states it is a confirmation of previous messages and not a new message. So far I've found nothing extra in it that is a new teaching from the bible. Granted however, I'm only on my second read through.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

Also @ elaine

i just noticed you quoted the same Quranic verse and evidently just misunderstood it. That verse is not saying that they didn't cricify Jesus. It's saying that they absolutely did- but that they did not kill him as they hoped. This it was saying that they were allowed to believe they had killed him (because they did crucify him) but God raised him up.

Ill say the above a different way for clarity.

The Jewish leaders and people wanted Jesus dead. They wanted him in a tomb and out of their way. So they killed him... OR SO THEY THOUGHT, says the Quran, because God raised him up. See, it's notnsaying they didn't crucify him, it's saying they did in fact - and it was a very gruesom, convincing show making them think they won. But really, they are shown as fools, because God raised him from the grave to his right hand.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

I'm not saying gay marriage is okay, nor that it's wrong. I'm saying the bible emphatically demonstrates free will, and freedom of choice are what humanity is all about. My point was that the bible protects your right to do anything, but indicates there may be consequences. The entire lesson Christ left was a new commandment, "that you love one another."

Thus, does it say homosexuality is wrong? Yes. Does that mean all gay people will die? Absolutely not. The judge in the bible is Jesus, he directed his followers, "stop judging that you may not be judged." It is not any human beings place to say how someone will be judged, rather it is our place to live in harmony and love and treat all how we would like to be treated. If someone is wrong, Jesus is the judge, and in the end when our deeds are weighed against us and our hearts read that is when our judgement happens - but not by any man or women on this planet. This is the bibles message, and direction - but this is not followed. Christians judge homosexuals, and are up in arms over this issue. The same is true for Catholics and contraception, judgement being passed by men and women who are fragrantly ignoring the real message, which is to never ever do the things they are doing.

And here's the difference between the Book of Mormon and the bible and Quran. The Quran seeks to confirm the bible, and nowhere contradicts it. It encourages reading of the bible and the Quran, and devotion to God.

The Book of Mormon does contradict the bible and the Quran. Thus it is impossible to be true. It teaches that God actually had intercourse with mary and dismisses the holy spirits involvement. This is untrue. The differences between the Book of Mormon and the other two are vast, and it excuses the Mormon book as nothing more than another hadith or Didache (an extra-canonical book that should not be considered inspired).

26

Jesus died for US...technically

by enigma1863 in

for god so loved the world he gave his only begotten son and then took him back.

that's not love, its a big legal loophole.

people have technically died in the past, and by the standards of diagnosing death in bible times you could definitely beat 48 hrs and return.

Jonathan Drake

@ kaik

first off, isn't your screen name a racial slur against Jewish people?

secondly Paul's letters date back to as early as the 40s and 50s ad, and he was writing to Gentiles. So no, in the first century there were many more Christians than just Jews. Further, what we are arguing is the same argument that was the issue back then. The Jews did not accept Christ as the messiah, did not accept the ransom, and denied him. The point of this thread however is not how the Jews responded. What was sought after, and requested by me, was explaining how it makes sense. I did so. The points you've made in your first and last post are just historically and demonstsbky incorrect. The second you made was spot on, but has no bearing on the discussion. It's kike we are talking about the King of Jordan and how he's on a rampage and you chime in with, "the patriots won the super bowl." Yes, that's true but......

anyway, I've explained it from the bibles perspective. I was going to come back to post the scriptures supporting it but it appears this may just be pointless, I cant tell if the thread is looking for an honest explanation or just to poke fun. So if scriptures would be appreciated by anyone just PM me and I'll put them all together.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

@ cofty not so, not all Muslims accept it. The major denominations all follow different hadiths. Some accept none. Accepting none is the proper choice, because the Quran, like the bible, condemns any attempt to replace or override or change it by some other teaching that springs up after it.

http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/a_dozen_reasons_%28P1153%29.html

http://www.compellingtruth.org/Shia-Sunni-Muslim.html

And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided. [3:103]

Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only [left] to Allah ; then He will inform them about what they used to do. [6:159]

And indeed, there is among them a party who alter the Scripture with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, "This is from Allah ," but it is not from Allah . And they speak untruth about Allah while they know.[3:78]

As you can see from the above, the Quran strictly forbade Muslims from doing the very thing they did - splitting off into different groups with different beliefs and following other scriptures than the approved ones (bible and Quran). So again, regardless of what Muslims believe, the Quran says what it says, the majority just do not listen, but some do - and these do not accept the hadiths.

@elaine

please read my other posts. A Christ is just a title. It means that person was Gods messenger or agent. This is why Jesus is called THE Christ, because he was a special Christ since he was also the Messiah. Moses was a Christ as well. The word Christ itself is not special, it's just a title. So every time the Quran calls Jesus a messenger it is calling him a Christ, because that is what a Christ was. Therefore it does not deny Jesus was the Christ, and in several places it actually calls him the messiah, one of which I quoted above.

and because they disbelieved and uttered a terrible slander against Mary, and said, 'We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God.' (They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them; those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him- No! God raised him up to Himself. God is almighty and wise. 4:156-158

The above speaks for itself.

In God's eyes Jesus is just like Adam: He created him from dust, said to him, 'be', and he was. 3:59

This is also mentioned elsewhere.

Let's establish what the Quran teaches about Jesus:

1. He WAS a Christ (messenger)

2. He was the messiah.

3. He had no father but God directly and is equal to or just like Adam.

4. His messianic status was denied by the people, he was crucified, but they did not kill him as they thought because God raised him to himself.

This is exactly what the bible says about him.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

@myelaine

the scripture there in 1 john states that those who deny Jesus is the Christ are a liar and the anti Christ. The Quran doesn't do this:

The Quran chapter 3 verse 45: "The Angels said, "Mary, God gives you news of a Word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, who will be held in honour in this world and the next, who will be one of those brought near to God."

the Quran teaches Jesus was the Christ, the messiah and gods agent in earth through Mary. The Quran condemns the trinity, which I also agree with as I've stated elsewhere the bible does not support the trinity. A Christ is merely gods representative.

Moses was a Christ, Jesus was a Christ - and the Quran teaches this. There is a verse in another sura that even states Jesus death was a death "equal to Adam" which is a clear reference to the role he played as the messiah in repurchasing mankind.

Like I said earlier, many many times the Quran states it is not a replacement of scripture but a confirmation of it (referring to the bible). It is encouraged to read the bible and the Quran together, with one as a confirmation of the other. I have found no contradictions in the Quran, and I would submit if you appear to have found one, that the full harmony of Quranic verse would, together, dismiss it.